+++ moderator has joined the chat, Mon, 08:17:23 PM
+++ modern_ist has joined the chat, Mon, 08:28:49 PM
+++ post_modern_hell has joined the chat, Mon, 08:29:13 PM
<moderator> hello and welcome
<modern_ist> hello
<post_modern_hell> hi
<moderator> so, for todays topic we are going to talk briefly about virtual photography; are you both familiar with the concept?
<post_modern_hell> y
<modern_ist> no, please explain.
<moderator> basically it's the process of taking screen shots of virtual surroundings in virtual worlds.
<post_modern_hell> as in computer games
<moderator> right, as in computer games, but not limited to them. the main criteria for this concept is that there has to be a graphic element to it, and that the thing being photographed is generated in a computer.
<modern_ist> got any examples?
<moderator> check out this page: http://www.monocultured.com and click on the 'virtual photography' tab
<modern_ist> ok. be right back.
<modern_ist> back
<moderator> good. do you get the general idea of the concept of 'virtual photography'?
<modern_ist> i can understand what you are getting at, but am also weary of the name of the concept. please continue though.
<moderator> ok, we'll get to the debate shortly enough.
<moderator> first, i'd like to set some rules for this debate.
<moderator> 1) both of you have to answer each question i give you.
<moderator> 2) if you want to comment on the answer of the other, you must end the comment as a question.
<moderator> 3) no speaking out of turn; if you want to interject something, just use emote "clarification" or whatever, and wait for my go-ahead.
<moderator> are you fine with these rules?
<modern_ist> yeah.
<post_modern_hell> how many questions have you prepared? this sounds like it could go on for a while.
<moderator> three questions. they are pretty basic and that's why i would like you to put forth questions to each other.
<post_modern_hell> ok, i'm ready.
<modern_ist> me too.
<< moderator set the topic to "is virtual photography, photography?" >>
<post_modern_hell> is that the question?
<moderator> no, that's just the topic for tonight.
<moderator> the first question is this:
<moderator> how would you define photography, ie what is it that characterizes photography and sets it apart from other art(s)?
<moderator> modern_ist is up first.
<modern_ist> for me the issue is quite clear-cut.
<modern_ist> photography is the (technical) process whereby light is projected onto a light-sensitive material whereby an image is created that represents (and reproduces) whatever the light has reflected off of.
<*** post_modern_hell already has a question>
<modern_ist> what sets it apart from other arts, especially two dimensional art, is it's indexicality to the objects that are being photographed.
<modern_ist> a photography cannot show something that wasn't in front of it when the image was taken.
<modern_ist> while painting, for example, is a pure interpretation by the artist of his surroundings, and thus cannot be said to have the same indexicality, or indexical value, as photography.
<modern_ist> good enough answer?
<moderator> yes.
<moderator> post_modern_hell had a question though. keep it short.
<post_modern_hell> ok. would you consider a paper that has been laying in the sun to be a photography? the paper has become yellowish because of the imprint of light on it, so wouldn't that fit your description of photography?
<modern_ist> no, if anything that would be a pictogram. there are no lenses or aperature to present the image created by the sun in a way that would be understandable to us.
<modern_ist> does that answer you question?
<post_modern_hell> yes, but i guess my question was poorly frased. let me use a hypothetical situation to illustrate:
<post_modern_hell> imagine a cave that was completely sealed off, except a tiny hole in one end which let light in.
<post_modern_hell> the wall opposing the hole is covered with some silver or whatnot that makes it sensitive to light in that is changes colour when exposed to it.
<post_modern_hell> the whole thing acts like a pinhole camera.
<post_modern_hell> is the resulting image a photograph?
<modern_ist> yeah, i guess...
<post_modern_hell> k.
<moderator> ok pomo hell, your turn to answer the first question.
<post_modern_hell> here goes.
<post_modern_hell> photography, as i would like to define it, is characterized by how it is interpreted as an object that has indexicality.
<post_modern_hell> that is; because we think that there is something to this notion of 'documentation', we percieve photography differently from a drawing. we do this not because of an inherent quality of the image, but of our understanding of what a photography is.
<*** modern_ist is confused.>
<post_modern_hell> i'll put it differently:
<moderator> please do.
<post_modern_hell> photography is defined not by the way it comes into being (as a result of exposing a light sensitive material, of it having indexicality with a 'real' world which it documents, etc), but this is rather taken as a given, and it is how we use photography that defines it.
<post_modern_hell> yes, we presuppose that there is an inherent indexicality to photography, but this is not what we use photography for - we use it to store memories, to manifest ideas and concept, to communicate news, etc.
<post_modern_hell> so in answer to the question, i would say that what characterizes photography is the illusion of 'Truth' that we persist ascribing to it, and what sets it apart from other arts is a result of this illusion - it is the content of the image that carries the meaning, not the image itself.
<*** modern_ist has a quesiton>
<moderator> go ahead modern
<modern_ist> how does this notion of photography as a vessel of Truth differ from painting? is not a painting also full of symbols that take attention away from the painting itself?
<modern_ist> i mean that that doesn't take away our understanding of a painting as being a painting. but it has to be more than just a canvas with paint on it, least it be a bad painting...
<post_modern_hell> what i am trying to say it that the technical definitions of a photography are a given; it stands in a class of itself, it is a "vessel of Truth" only insofar that we define something as "True" the same way we define what a photography is.
<post_modern_hell> it is in a social context that i would like to define photography, because it is wholly dependent on human perception of what is real and how it looks and so on.
<moderator> is that enough answer for you, modern?
<modern_ist> i'm still confused, but yes.
<moderator> ok. pomo, could you sum up your definition of photography in one sentence?
<post_modern_hell> i'm not given to soundbites, but how about this: the art of photography is a means whereby images are given a status as "vessels of Truth" because of a perceived correlation between how the images are made and how we perceive the world.
<*** modern_ist question>
<moderator> go ahead
<modern_ist> so photography is defined by a perceived trait of the technology that has created it? how is that different from my definition, except that i used a more specific technical description of the technique?
<post_modern_hell> my definition is of photography as a social concept, not a technical process. my point is that the technological ascpect of it is totally arbitrary and irrelevant. we use photography in a certain way because we think there is an inherited indexicality, or referentiality, in photography. why? because by it's very definition it does!
<modern_ist> if i understand you correctly, what distinguishes photography from painting is not it's nature, but how we use it?
<post_modern_hell> more or less.
<modern_ist> but if there is a difference between how we interpret painting and photography, doesn't that imply that there is a factual difference between the two? that there in fact *is* a qualitative difference between them? not just something that we've casually decided on?
<post_modern_hell> of course there is a qualitative difference between the two, but the difference is smaller than what i believe is generally assumed; the difference does not lay in that a painting is all 'made up' and photography is 'all realistic'; both are total fabrications of a human mind - neither can exist without human preconceptions of truth and un-truth; the point is that the different mediums have taken totally arbitraty places in our minds and are well stuck there.
<*** modern_ist sighs>
<modern_ist> does it always have to come to semantics in post modern theory?
<post_modern_hell> only when debating a modernist...
<moderator> ok, before we start flaming each other too much, i'd like to move on to the second question. can you agree to disagree on the definition of photography? (you both seem to have an understanding of each others reasoning, although you don't share each others' views)
<post_modern_hell> yeah.
<modern_ist> yeah.
<moderator> ok, question number two:
<moderator> how would you define "virtual photography", and what is its' correlation to "photography" as you understand it?
<moderator> pomo, you go first.
<post_modern_hell> k.
<post_modern_hell> i would say that virtual photography is exactly what it's name implies; it fulfilles the same function for the virtual world that 'normal' photography does for the 'real' world.
<post_modern_hell> namely this: it presents itself as an unadultureted representation of human concepts that exist in virtual worlds; it is a presenter of 'Truth' in the virtual world and is understood as such by the inhabitants of such worlds.
<post_modern_hell> the difference is that while the 'real' world is known to all able-bodied humans (i use 'able-bodied' to exclude for example blind people who i assume don't share a seing persons concept of the world, and more accurately, the value of photography as an object that carries an indexical value), the virtual world is for most people unknown as a concept, if for nothing else then because knowledge of it demands access to computer equipment that is beyond the reach of most of the worlds population.
<post_modern_hell> to use boudrilliard-speak, it's the third order of simulacra, that which precedes our understanding of any 'original' or 'real'.
<moderator> any comments on that modern_ist?
<modern_ist> not really. the disagreement we have over the definition of photography carries over to this so that our outlooks on virtual photography differ too much to reconcile, i'm afraid.
<modern_ist> i understand what pomo_hell is getting at, but i disagree with it...
<moderator> ok. your turn to define "virtual photography" and it's correlation to "photography", modernist.
<modern_ist> trying to argue from the standpoint of pomo, i would point out that while photography deals with other things besides man-made artifacts, virtual "photography" does not. every picture taken will be predetermined by whatever the creators wanted to put into the virtual world.
<modern_ist> you can never take a picture of an object not directly controlled by a human.
<modern_ist> even if you'd put in random objects into the world, the "randomness" of them would be ultimately controlled by someone.
<modern_ist> this makes the term "photography" redundent in my view, because you cannot document anything that is not documented "as it is" - it's stuck on your or someone elses' hard-drive.
<*** post_modern_hell comment>
<modern_ist> and this was me trying to see things from a post-mopdern perspective.
<modern_ist> from my own perspective i would argue that you have to have a physical world to have a photography. you have to have the mechanical process by which light creates a representation of the outside world to have photography.
<modern_ist> the virtual world as it is represented on screen doesn't even bare any resemblence of that worlds' real nature, as stored ones and zeros on a hard drive! the virtual world is in itself not representative of itself, let alone any pretense to "photographies" of it!
<moderator> a short comment pomo_hell?
<post_modern_hell> the attempt at moderns' post-modern dismissal of virtual photography isn't a good one; if nothing else the example used against it is flawed: if photography is redundent in a virtual world because there already exists a perfect documentation of the world, namely the 'original' software and an endless number of 'copies' of it, this should apply to the real world as well, no? photography hasn't been made redundant because the world keeps existing without it? so why should virtual photography be redundant if it fullfills the same function of communicating meaning as 'real' photography does?
<modern_ist> perhaps it's so because the virtual worlds, unlike the real world, can be replayed endlessly - there is no problem revisiting the same place at the same "time" in the virtual world. all you have to do is reset the application and you are back in the same place and nothing will have changed. this non-uniqueness is problematic for virtual photography, this you certainly have to agree with?
<post_modern_hell> yes, i do agree that it has to be dealt with, but not by dismissing the 'photography' part of 'virtual photography', but rather by accepting non-uniqueness as a possible part of virtuality.
<post_modern_hell> it's a quantitative difference, not a qualitative.
<post_modern_hell> it's not technically difficult to create virtual worlds that are unique and never repeat themselves, and if that is your objection against accepting virtual photography as 'photography' then i'd say your objection is invalid...
<modern_ist> that is one objection, and my counter-point to your suggestion that there can exist unique virtual worlds is that there is nothing stopping you from recreating whatever unique virtual world you've conjured up.
<modern_ist> thus, the uniqueness is theoretically impossible to guarantee for virtuality, while it is un-avoidable in the real world.
<modern_ist> this moment will never come again.
<modern_ist> neither will this.
<modern_ist> and so on.
<modern_ist> while in a virtual world, this moment might be this moment still in the next moment
<modern_ist> catch my drift?
<post_modern_hell> yeah.
<modern_ist> my second objection is that you are not adding anything to the image
<modern_ist> (at least in the images that i saw at the beginning of this debate).
<modern_ist> if you buy an off-the-shelf computer game, everything that you see is created by someone else.
<modern_ist> the textures, the scenery, the characters.
<modern_ist> thus, what you are doing when you're taking screen-shots inside a computer game is more like making a copy of a small part of the game; you can add nothing to it. it's all already there.
<*** post_modern_hell want's to comment again...>
<modern_ist> the comment i'm expecting from pomo is that what i might add to a virtual world would be the images themselves; my original view-point, my decision to take a screen-shot, my will-power.
<*** post_modern_hell withdraws her request>
<modern_ist> of course i object to this line of reasoning, because there can be nothing original in a non-original setting.
<*** post_modern_hell want's to comment again...>
<modern_ist> all possible angles are already chosen for you by the creators of the world. and were you to add something (a virtual object, that is) to that world, that would make you a virtual-world-sculptor or somesuch, but any screen-shots of your creation would not be photographies but parts of that virtual world. maybe a class of document for and of itself (ie not painting, not graphic design), but certainly not photography.
<moderator> post_modern_hell, you had a comment?
<post_modern_hell> yes, i have an counter-example:
<post_modern_hell> suppose that five photographers were told to take a picture in a small white room. they are not allowed more than a standard lens and all use the same film/developer, whatnot.
<post_modern_hell> are the resulting images to be considered 'photographies'? the angles are very limited and the setting is all predetermined by someone else, so this would be a good parallell to your non-originality example from the virtual world, no?
<modern_ist> the resulting images would be photographies because of the way they were made, and because there is a direct correlation between the resulting image and what was being photographed.
<modern_ist> they might all be similar images, and they might all be boring, but they'd be photographies non-the-less.
<modern_ist> i think you are confusing the resulting image and the acceptance of how the image was made.
<post_modern_hell> how so?
<modern_ist> even if i take a picture of a blank wall, the knowledge of how that image was made is enough to take it as a representation (however boring it might be) of something real; of something that left it's impression of itself onto the photosensitive material.
<modern_ist> that makes it per definition a photography.
<post_modern_hell> ok, i see what you are getting at.
<modern_ist> good.
<post_modern_hell> and of course i disagree...
<modern_ist> of course...
<moderator> anything else to add, modern_ist?
<modern_ist> well, as susan sontag put it; "all art aspires to the position of photography", and i guess it is because of the unique position of photography as a carrier of some truth (if not The Truth) that forces all these comparisons to be made; why not "virtual painting" or "virtual documentation"? why does it have to be "virtual photography"?
<moderator> a final retord, pomo?
<post_modern_hell> yes, while we're quoting scripture, i'd like to bring up two obvious comments: the first one is that there can be no understanding of anything unless we already have knowledge of it; this sounds tautological, but in fact leads me to state that everything is man-made.
<post_modern_hell> therefore there can be no fruitful discussion about man-made & un-original versus natural & original. the concepts themselves are made by us, and lend no helping hand in understanding knowledge itself.
<post_modern_hell> it certainly doesn't help us understand the nature of photography better.
<post_modern_hell> the second point is more of an example that i feel should fullfill the criteria that modern_ist has set up for 'photography' (apart from the obvious mechanical procedure of "light hitting light-sensitive material"): in 1977 Kit Galloway and Sherrie Rabinowitz put together a live dance performance that only existed complete in cyberspace, with three different locations, and different dancers.
<post_modern_hell> you could interpreted the piece as consisting of the set of three locations, but the nexus of the performance lies in the connection between the three; in cyberspace, in a virtual world created only for this occasion.
<post_modern_hell> if this performance would have taken place in a world represented by three dimentional characters, and i would have taken screen shots of it, would this constitute a photography?
<modern_ist> i would say no to that, and i think my reasoning on this is quite clear: in order for the performers to appear in a virtual world, there would already have to be an mediation between the real and the virtual; it wouldn't matter if they wore suits that accurately translated their movements into digital data or if they were captured on video and their images were mixed together; in the first instance, their virtual representatives would already be constructed, thus you would not see their real bodies but only graphic representations of them. in the second instant, the original video of their dancing would be in the same class as photography, but your picture of that picture would not be since the image has alreade been mediated by whomever mixed the video together, and doesn't bear the same indexicality to the object that is shown as the original video.
<moderator> ok. again, let's agree to disagree on this one.
<*** post_modern_hell nods>
<modern_ist> we have little choice...
<moderator> the third and last question regarding virtual photography is it's future.
<moderator> the question is: what possible applications do you see of virtual photography in the near future?
<moderator> who want's to go first?
<modern_ist> go ahead pomo.
<post_modern_hell> thanks.
<post_modern_hell> well, i would say that virtual photography will expand to encompass all the same functions that 'real' photography has in the physical world, adjusted to the limitations to it's medium.
<post_modern_hell> the more complex the graphics of virtual worlds become, and the more intricate social interaction become, the more people will discover the same need and use of photography in virtual worlds as they have in the physical world.
<post_modern_hell> right now the most accessible virtual worlds are computer games, but it's not hard to imagine virtual conferences and meetings taking place, not to mention buisiness transactions and non-game oriented leasure.
<post_modern_hell> short virtual trips with friends
<post_modern_hell> going virtual flying, or for a virtual drink after work.
<post_modern_hell> right now it looks like most virtual worlds try to mimic what we know from the physical world; we tend to reconstruct whatever social realities we know when we create a virtual world; just look at the world of MUDs and how they reproduced social strata from the physical to the virtual. and today we have online computer games that reproduce borders, currency, laws and so on that aren't necessarily a result of the nature of virtuality, but of physical necessity (ie, we have laws against killing each other, because, well, we don't want to die, while in the virtual world there is no concept of 'alive' or 'dead' that would necessitate such laws. yet they exist).
<post_modern_hell> this is understandable, but i believe that we will se many more experimental virtual worlds crop up as the technology gets more dissiminated into a larger chunk of our populations. look at the attempts that vere made by the PMC MOO back in the early nineties, and they dealt with a text-based virtual reality.
<post_modern_hell> and the role of virtual photography will at first be the same as it is in the physical world; fashion, documentary, art, commercial, etc.
<post_modern_hell> and i believe that the virtual photography will be received as such; when we accept the virtual as as real as the physical, when the social reality of the virtual become tangible to us, our interpretation of virtual photography will not differ from our interpretation of 'real' photography.
<moderator> modern_ist?
<modern_ist> well, i think that i and pomo_hell might actually agree on the future of virtual photography here.
<post_modern_hell> wow
<modern_ist> but i still won't call it 'photography'.
<*** post_modern_hell groans>
<modern_ist> i still demand a connection to the physical world for anything that i call "photography". so i guess we have to get together another time to delve deeper into that, but as far as the future of virtual "photography" goes, i agree with post_modern_hell on his prediction.
<moderator> ok then, thanks for your participation.
<post_modern_hell> thanks.
<modern_ist> later!
<--- modern_ist has exited the chat, Tue, 01:49:17 AM>
<--- post_modern_hell has exited the chat, Tue, 01:49:26 AM>
<--- moderator has exited the chat, Tue, 01:50:05 AM>